INTERVIEW WITH BOB GOEDEWAAGEN
In the corner of one of the buildings in Bajonetstraat, inside a window frame, there’s a painting that tells an interesting story. Unlike the city’s other giant murals, it doesn’t impress visitors with its skilled execution or large dimensions. In fact, most people living in town aren’t even aware it exists, since it isn’t a reference point for touristic routes. So today, I will share this hidden gem of the city with you.
Let’s go back to the 1980s in Rotterdam, where house prices were so high that it’s easy to imagine this story happening today. But people from Rotterdam are not made of sugar, and they have thick skin when it comes to fighting for their rights! And, most importantly, they do so artistically and peacefully. The person I am interviewing today is one of the artists responsible for the project, Bob Goedewaagen, and he will tell you everything about ‘Stop de Woonlastenstijging’.
Cláudia Freitas: Hi Bob, good morning. Thank you for accepting my invitation to this interview. As we discussed, it is about a protest art with the draw of a traffic light…
Bob Goedewaagen: You can ask me. In general, we did three of them.
CF: Three of them? The museum only included the one I talked about in the collection, but I would like to know more about the other two!
BG: One was at Adrianaplein, but the first was the Stoplicht (the one with traffic lights). We also did a mural with a Lion, the symbol of Actiegroep, and a third one that you can’t find any register of. Still, it was colored symbols, numbers, and text.
CF: The first one still remains, thankfully!
BG: The first one is still around, but we think it could be better (laughs).
CF: Well, it’s nice, I think. It’s protest art, so it’s something interesting to know about.
BG: Yes, they asked us for that matter. They asked us to do something about the high rents of houses that made people who did not have enough money homeless.
CF: The Actiegroep asked for it?
BG: Yes, Actiegroep. I lived under this building for 40 years, something like that (says while showing me a picture). It was to move when renovated, so I met the Actiegroep committee and many others. They knew we were in academia; we were graphic designers at that time.
CF: So, did you and another person make this project?
BG: Yes, it was.
CF: Did you work with that person to make the three paintings?
BG: Yes.
CF: Was all of it in the same medium, on the window frame?
BG: Two are in the windows, and one is on the big wall in the park.
CF: Ah, the park with the Giant (sculpture by Herman Lamers in the Wijkpark). And the one with the symbols, plus the one with the Lion and the Stoplicht, did it have a connected meaning?
BG: No, they all had a separate meaning, not in total. They were all social-themed, but the last one was freer. However, the Actiegroep was responsible for commissioning all of them.
The reader may be wondering what this Actiegroep we’ve been talking about actually is. The Actiegroep represents safety for the residents of the Oude Westen neighborhood, where anyone can enter to ask about the area’s well-being. A place where the locals can help each other with concerns like affordable housing, helping each other fill out complicated forms, greening streets and roofs, reusing items, and energy use, to name a few. More than 50 years ago, the Oude Westen Action Group began by stopping plans to demolish the Oude Westen district in Rotterdam. Since then, local residents have worked hard to create a better neighborhood. This is why the Oude Westen Action Group is an organization by and for residents. Everyone contributes and benefits from it!
BG: During that time, it was a neighborhood of working-class people. And there were a lot of problems. I was at the end of it, but there was a vast community: first the people from Holland who were living in the area, and then, in the 70s and 80s, many more people from other countries came to join them. The neighborhood grew more crowded, and landlords used that to push rents up for everyone. The Actiegroep committee stood up for these people against the government, for instance, or against the landlords for the rent. That’s, of course, the reason behind the traffic light artwork that you know. So, for the people who came to the Netherlands in the 80s and 90s to work, the Actiegroep was fighting to keep prices affordable. And, well, of course, that put a lot of pressure on a working-class area where people didn’t have much money to begin with. They wanted the neighborhood to stay affordable and keep belonging to the people who lived there.
CF: Basically, they and you were being exploited by the owners, the landlords.
BG: By the owners, the property owners. But also against Woonstad. They did little about the houses; they needed more maintenance.
CF: Yes, that’s funny since the block where the painting is located is from Woonstad (laughs). Was it back then from Woonstad, too?
BG: Yes, it was (laughs).
CF: So, did you protest on the wall of Woonstad?
BG: Yes, against Woonstad. At that time, they were very social, I must say. They did the first renovation because I lived there just before, at the Bainestraat. The first renovation was perfect. The rent did go higher a bit, but only a little. We got a double glass. Like thicker glass to insulate. So, you ended up receiving a notice, but that’s understandable. However, you were relocated to a different place for a few months while your house was renovated. When you returned, it was in much better condition. The transformation from the previous condition to a much improved one was significant.
CF: Sorry, I didn’t understand very well…Are you saying to me that this “protest” resulted in something?
BG: Yes, they actually improved!
CF: Oh, that’s very good! And when was it?
BG: I’m not sure… I think between 83 and 86? Yes, something like that. We need to check the painting because the date is on it.
CF: Two of the artworks were made on a window frame. Is there any particular reason for that?
BG: The framework was initially designed for advertising and has always been that way. This is because the building dates back to the 1920s or 1930s. The advertisement framework likely corresponds to the same era. It was a clever way to promote businesses. You can also observe the style of the windows, which further supports this. Most of the time, it was indeed for advertising purposes during that period. However, verifying this information is essential, as I’m still determining the timeline; it could also be from 1910.
CF: Then it was like a place for advertisement, and you and the other person took it and used it to pass this message?
BG: They were completely blank and spread across the entire city. I used to work as a photographer for CBK, and I have a lot of pictures of it. You might have heard of Hans Abelman. He was also associated with CBK, which stands for Centrum Beeldende Kunst, an art foundation. He was responsible for creating many of these artworks in window frames throughout the city.
CF: I don’t know his work, but I will definitely check! And the design you chose for that one is a traffic light. What was the concept behind it? Why did you decide to do a renting theme with that composition?
BG: Green represents the best way to spend your money, whether on leisure, dining, or whatever you like. Red represents places with too high rent, for example, the red-labeled pieces. Yellow signifies moderate rent, and green indicates an entirely affordable option. We chose the traffic light because it expresses what healthy management of your income looks like, through its association with simple colors that people can relate to: good or bad, stable or unstable. A traffic light can express this concept clearly and symbolically for everyone.
CF: And what were the materials? What were the materials that you used to make the painting?
BG: Latex paint. Maybe, I don’t know. Perhaps we started with a background using another type of paint to prepare it. It’s very similar to how a lot of people still work nowadays. Many still follow the same process. You need to assess the type of material and then apply a primer or something similar. I believe so. Sorry for the uncertainty.
CF: Did you use to do street art?
BG: No, they asked us. Well, we were more into graphic design than street art. The two of us were more into graphic design. We just did this because we were asked to.
CF: I was asking because you also did the other walls, the other two. But then you only did street art with this protest assignment…
BG: This one wasn’t exactly a protest; the others weren’t protests either. The Actiegroep committee requested that we create something about the housing costs. They had the idea to take a stand against it, as Actiegroep is somewhat of a protest movement. That’s why it is categorized as protest art. They wanted to send a message to Woonstad, for example. They tried to draw attention and prevent the costs from skyrocketing. Some journalists noticed and reported on it, which could have led to some action being taken.
CF: Do you think a new one is needed nowadays? (laughs)
BG: I think so, yes. (laughs) The same situation is happening nowadays. But they renewed the building again, not long ago.
CF: But why did they destroy the last one you did but not this one?
BG: Well, most of these houses were destroyed and built up again. They left some things, but they destroyed others. It happens. But for the one with the Stoplicht, they wanted to maintain the building by just removing the windows and stripping the whole building while keeping the stones. The other one was completely destroyed and built up again, so it is because of this that the other painted wall doesn’t exist anymore.
CF: Do you think there should be a policy to save this one? That they don’t remove it? We won’t do it since we believe it’s historically significant. But the owners could repaint, for example. What do you think about it?
BG: We wouldn’t be okay with it if it were something else. We think there are better ones, and it’s a shame it’s the last one standing, but we are not too attached.
CF: But you wouldn’t mind if it would fade away? You don’t like the result? Probably you think this wasn’t your best design, I guess…
BG: These designs aren’t mine. Well, it was Ben’s design. All three designs were Ben’s creations. They actually chose his designs. I also submitted designs, but they went with Ben’s. They were drawn to his mathematical approach. Of course, this one has a statistical feel to it. But it’s more that the project wasn’t significant enough for us to feel strongly about protecting it.
CF: And did he do the painting as well?
BG: Yes, we did both. And it was a very low budget. We didn’t get any money. Art is underpaid now. But back then, even more. We had some rest paint we could use.
CF: What if Woonstad were to say they will also renovate this one, using a restoration expert to bring it back to its original state?
BG: You mean this image? Yes, of course, we don’t have any issues with that.
CF: I’m curious about the government’s reaction, especially since there’s another artwork nearby. It’s another artwork that also contains elements of protest further down the same street. You told me that you and Ben had a background more in design…
BG: We studied graphic design at that time. It’s called “publiciteit” here in The Netherlands.
CF: So that’s what you do mainly?
BG: No, after that, I went into photography.
CF: Oh yes, I did a little bit of research about you, and I didn’t find anything, but I saw that you were listed on LinkedIn as a photographer. I was doubting if it was you or not. Do you still work as a photographer? What kind of photos do you make?
BG: Well, I work for museums…
CF: Before you said to CBK?
BG: Yes, that, too, but also for Museum Boijmans. It involves documenting art. Then, there is exhibition work on projects for the Kröller-Müller and Photography Museum. In fact, I need to go there this afternoon. It’s great to be involved in a variety of activities.
CF: And you take pictures of the paintings or of the exhibitions?
BG: I specialize in exhibition installations. Additionally, I’m a specialist in art photography. I can assist if you need help with catalogs or any related materials. I also work with sculptures and create photographs for later use in screen prints or printing.
CF: You make pictures that can be turned into print, art prints, or something else? Like art prints for sale?
BG: For artists, yes. I work for a lot of artists. I am really into the Rotterdam cultural thing.
CF: So, you primarily work here. Are you from Rotterdam?
BG: Yes, I am; I’ve been here for 40 years. Well, I was also in Drenthe before.
Bob shared some of his work and the projects he creates for museums and artists. During our conversation, we discussed the significance of the Rotterdam Street Art Museum and why our team must incorporate previous artworks from the area, including his own mural. These artworks tell forgotten stories from Rotterdam West’s past. Even though he wasn’t familiar with our project, Bob was delighted to see a positive impact in a neighborhood that once held a special place in his heart.
CF: And one last question: Can I take a picture with you?
BG: I’m a photographer, so I’m always behind the picture.
